Cat People (1982)

Hey folks, just a little intro before we actually start the episode today. I just wanted to let folks know what's going on with me. This is your host, Mike White. If you are on my socials, you might have seen that I got fired back in August of 2026. Don't worry, I'm okay.

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The company whose stock price had gone from nearly $ 7 all the way down to less than $ 2 and had stopped giving any sort of dividends and is in some sort of receivership type stuff. It's not good there. And I liked that post and the CTO saw it and said that I should get fired. And then I was fired. So once I found out that and how stupid it was, I was really okay with things.

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I'm not like you. I'm sorry. Welcome to The Projection Booth. I'm your host, Mike White. Joining me once again is Mr.

Josh Hadley. Yes, I'm a little under the weather, but we can still put out fires with gasoline because that is a great song and a great line. Also back in the booth is Ms. Heather Drain. Hello, hello.

Shocktober 2026 continues with a movie that set out to not be a personal, sorry, that set out to not be personal. and ended up being the most personal thing its director ever made. In 1982, Paul Schrader, hot-off-taxi-driver, hardcore and American gigolo, and looking to take a break from hyping his own obsession, signed on to direct somebody else's script, a remake of Val Luton and Jacques Tourneur's 1942 horror classic Cat People. Schrader figured a genre assignment, a monster movie with makeup effects, would be a nice change of pace, Instead, he fell into an affair with his star, Natasha Skinski, polarized every one of his usual hang-ups in Salmon Red and Chartreuse Green, and delivered what he now calls the most personal film he ever made, incest, bondage, and zoophilia included.

Malcolm McDowell, Ed Begley Jr., John Hurd, Annette O'Toole, and Ruby Dee are just a few of the cast that are over in New Orleans today. that is thick with voodoo, humidity, and a Giorgio Moroder score that just will not quit. And the title song that Josh mentioned from David Bowie, definitely a favorite of Quentin Tarantino's. We'll talk about that, and we will... Yeah, yeah, we'll just talk about that. Sorry, I overwrote this.

And we will talk about that. We will be spoiling this film as we go along, so if you don't want anything ruined, please turn off the podcast and come back after you've seen the movie. We will still be here. So, Josh, When was the first time you saw cat people and what did you think? Weirdly enough, my first experience was not with the movie.

It was with the soundtrack. My parents had the soundtrack on LP. Remember that gorgeous cover with the glittering rain where it's coming over Natasha Kinski's face and she's got those pursed lips? I remember seeing that in my parents' record collection long before I ever actually saw the movie. But I want to say HBO or Showtime.

In the mid to late 80s, I saw it, and I was definitely too young to have seen this movie. And I also absolutely did not understand it when I saw it at like 10 years old. So watching it again, re-watching it for this was the first time I've seen it in, I don't know, 20, 25 years. It hit me a lot different than the way I remembered it. Both some good, some bad.

I like the movie in general. But there are things I noticed in it now that I never would have noticed on VHS, let's put it that way. And Heather, how about yourself? Well, the first time this movie came to my shores when I'm much like Josh, I was as well way too young to be watching it. And I want to say I was around like, geez, like 11.

And I was Because my mom at the local video store had given them, had written permission that I was allowed to rent R-rated movies on my own, which was very progressive of her. And I think if she had seen some of the stuff I was renting, she probably would have reneged on that. But it's all good. And yeah, there are things that definitely went over my head. But my main memory of it was there were visuals I really liked. because there were some strong visuals in the film.

The reason I had rented it was Malcolm McDowell, which this is very on-brand for me. My whole life has been driven by a pursuit of amazing character actors. And Malcolm McDowell's great in it. But yeah, I had a mixed reaction as well to it. And re-watching it for this pod, for different reasons, kind of speaking to Josh's experiences, again, there are things I adore about this movie.

There are questions I have about it. And I'm looking forward to diving in. I think I've discovered a theme because I was also way too young when I watched this movie for the first time. I don't remember if I saw this or the original Cat People first. I know for sure I can remember exactly when I saw the original Cat People, where I was doing, everything about it.

But this one, yeah, I want to say probably a cable watch. I want to say the movie channel. because they would play R-rated movies during the day, which was great. And yeah, definitely way too young. I remembered this movie being way more sexual than it is, and it's already incredibly sexual. I mean, this whole movie basically is going to fuck Natasha Kinski first.

Is it going to be Malcolm McDowell? Is it going to be John Heard? Or is it going to be Paul Schrader? Who's going to get in there? Because that's the whole thing, is she's going to turn into a cat at some point.

Yeah, it all ties into sex and sexuality. And I remember re-watching this just a few years ago, and that gave me the idea that I really wanted to do an episode about this, just because, like you're saying, Heather, I also have questions. And I'm just like, how the hell did this movie get to be the way that it is? Going back through and reading like Alan Ormsby's screenplay and just seeing how incredibly different that screenplay was I mean there are elements that translate into the 82 film but not everything that the Ormsby script is would start around 15 minutes into this movie. All of this stuff with the actual cat people and the ancient primordial land that Natasha Kinski and I guess Malcolm McDowell come from.

For whatever reason, I am now keep thinking of Exorcist 2 with that kind of great fake landscape that John Borman created. Very similar with this, and I just love this red sand and that opening shot with the skulls in the red sand. And just this whole opening, I was just like, it creeps me the fuck out. I just love it. It's very Pazuzu forward.

I love that. And right from the bat, the film establishing itself as having. some beautiful visuals, because the red desert, this sort of barren-looking tree with these beautiful black cats just lounging on it, and this sort of maiden being kind of tied to the tree and sacrificed, and very, to me, reminiscent of Cecil B. DeMille's Sign of the Cross, where, you know, but instead of a maiden being tied to a pole and being accosted by an ape, you're having a panther, and that's sort of the implication of of how this race started through the unholy mating of a large cat and a woman. So I love the film right out of the gate. This is like, and I'm like, yeah, that's Paul Schrader.

That doesn't surprise me that you said that because I was so surprised rewatching it. I had completely forgot Alan Ormsby. My jaw dropped when I saw that in the rewatch because I was like, because of course when I was like 10 or 11, I wasn't, I mean, I would love to say I was super cool and knew who Alan Ormsby was. I wasn't. I was still a little prepubescent, a little snot in a lot of ways.

But of course now I love Ormsby. But this film doesn't feel to me at all like an Ormsby. And Ormsby is a great writer. Like, I'm sorry, Death Dream? Hello?

Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things? Those two right there are two of my favorite movies. Like, and Paul Schrader's, I mean, has done brilliant work, too. I love Schrader in a lot of ways as well. But Schrader's a very distinctive voice and his smell is all over this film.

Well, this also is one of the things that shocked me was one, how graphic it was and that it was put out by a studio. like a major studio. This is the kind of film nowadays you would see from maybe A24, maybe Neon, but you would never see Universal putting out a movie like this. You would never see Warner Brothers putting out a movie like this nowadays. This was in that era where, and when I say adult, I don't mean porno, where adults made adult movies for adult audiences. And now, I think everything's been PG-13-ified to the point where something like this sticks out even more.

Because you gotta remember, I'm 51, I'm in film school at a way too old of an age, so I'm surrounded by all these early 20-somethings. And they're always shocked when they see something like Chinatown, or The Exorcist, or even the curb stomp scene from American History X. They can't believe a studio put these movies out. Their brains have been PG-13-ified by Marvel movies. And for Universal to back a movie like this, I don't know what executive actually signed off on it, but they had some balls to actually do that in 82.

And to go back to what Heather said, the weird, cool visuals that you and Mike were talking about, I always think of, and I do think of, Exorcist II, The Heretic, because I totally see what you're going for there, Mike, but also The Hunger, which came out the same year, that had those same hyper-saturated oranges and reds and those deep blacks. Now, that was cut like a music video, and Cat People kind of isn't, but the fact that this and The Hunger came out relatively back-to-back, something was in the air at the time, and I absolutely love it. And David Bowie is the connective tissue. Yes, yes. I mean, what a bravura thing to do to start a movie pretty much silent for 15 minutes.

This whole sequence of them sacrificing this girl, there's no dialogue, and it's just this kind of slower-paced version of the gasoline song, just like, okay, this is kind of nice, and it just is so moody when it comes to everything, and I just really appreciate that it's it is just such a mood piece and then now finally having seen and talked about the conformist now i really appreciate more of what schrader was going for here you know bringing in the same set decorator really like playing with this kind of more italian brutalist type of thing i mean just it really feels like that especially in the scenes let's just say africa even though it may or may not be africa i want to say this is some sort of cradle of civilization So you've got that whole thing going on.

But then even when it comes to, like, even when they're in the bar and that woman comes up to Natasha Kinski and says, mi amana and stuff, I'm just like, she looks like she could have been in The Conformist. She looks like she just stepped out of that film, a Bertolucci film, and just wandered haphazardly onto a Paul Schrader set. No joke about it. Oh, sorry. I just wanted to say something about the Italian thing Mike brought up.

Real quick. I got the same vibe. I got, like, I don't know if this is a fair comparison. In my notes, I put, feels like a Fulci movie at times. And I don't know if that's fair or not, but it has a very early 80s Italian exploitation vibe to it.

And I'm not sure how intentional or accidental that was. I think it's very intentional because I want to say Franco Zepparelli worked on this even though he couldn't have his name on it in the same way that he's supposed to. But I think they call him like a special consultant or something rather than a production designer. But yeah, this is really playing into that. And I would say even things like American Gigolo felt very Italian as well.

And I think having the same cinematographer who is a John Bailey really makes a lot of sense. And just, you know, like, Both of those play into this. Sorry, Heather. Oh, it's fine. Sorry, we were talking about the Italians.

If I don't get it out at once, my brain will lap. But you go first from Noah. No, it is the visuals. I think to me, one of the strongest things about this version is, bar none, the cinematography, the colors, the production design. The practical effects are really cool, too.

It's not as heavy as with obviously with like The Howling or American Werewolf, but but it's still very cool and it's refreshing to see. Yeah, especially when people have been inundated with, you know, CGI, what I'll call atrocity, because I've seen even like low budget horror films use digital blood. And it's like the reason my horror films were so popular for low budget filmmakers is is a, that you could sell them very easily, but two, they're very cheap to make because you just fake blood. You can make it. And it's, it doesn't.

And now it's like digital blood is like, oh, worst. But, but no, no, I, or I love the way this film tro. But it's interesting though. Cause like when we go back to the red sand land, we're given a different presentation of the origin story. Not to jump too forward.

Well, I am jumping too far. Maybe I should scale back. It's because it's, you know, the key difference. I don't know. Should we just jump right into this?

Because I find it almost impossible not to compare, like, you know, the original Cat People with the remake. It's fine. We can jump around. I was going to try to save it for the second half of the talk, but we can definitely bring up some comparisons now. No, no, we should save it.

No, don't let me go first. I feel bad now. I feel like I kind of like stymied shit. I'm sorry. And I forgot that there is more to this at the beginning of the whole scene with the introduction.

So, yeah, that's more like six minutes in and we have one of two scenes dissolves from a face to natasha natasha kinski's face we've got the young girl who's meeting the uh the the leopard and then we've got leopard right i always want to say lion or jaguar or whatever but leopard i think and then we've got the second one which is the most bizarre one speaking of jumping forward which is her dissolving back to her and so it's just great when she's on the train like that is an amazing shot in this whole film you know there's like yeah you're talking about practical effects like i love the whole idea of showing the supernatural of malcolm mcdowell by using backwards film you know just having him jump up onto that you know credenza or whatever when it's like okay yeah he he obviously jumped down but they film it in such a way that it looks really good and it's practically unnoticeable somebody like me where i'm always looking for backwards stuff i'm just like okay yeah that was definitely backwards but it's subtle and they use special effects in a very subtle way other than maybe at the end with the transformation scene of her but even with his transformation scene I think you get like a quick flash of him when he's transforming.

So it's really smart. Oh, yeah. No, I love the balance of it. I've just enough sort of like subtlety to where when you do see like a bright bit of gore, like when we see Ed Begley tuners get, you know, character get de-armed like that. It's so brutal, but especially because it's surrounded by all that great stark white.

And just there's that great shot that almost sort of a slight slower motion shot of the blood spilling around Irina's feet. Gorgeous. Absolutely. The blood going down the drain is the one that gets me. The movie has a certain unreality to it, which I don't know if we wanted to read too much into that.

You know, it could be an unreliable narrator kind of situation because we are kind of seeing the whole movie through her eyes. So Natasha Kinski is involved in almost every scene. There's very few parts of the narrative that her character wouldn't have been involved in. So I don't know if that's what they meant, but it has a very cool unreality to it. And there's a production thing that they did, which I don't think was intentional, that also adds to that.

Did you guys notice just how much of this movie is ADR'd? There were some scenes where there was one scene in particular with her and John Heard's character, Oliver, like actually like probably like 60 minutes in. Like I didn't really pick up on really any real noticeable ADR. And then there was one scene where it just felt glaring. There's a whole ADR character in this.

Frankie Faison, his whole character. And we all know what Frankie Faison sounds like from the Silence movies and the Hannibal and all that. And I like him. And that is absolutely a white dude doing his voice. Because apparently, from what I read... was Paul Schrader loved the performance, but he thought he mumbled his lines a little bit.

So every line Frankie Faison has is ADR in this. And you can really, really tell. Now that I've said that, go back and watch it. You won't be able to unsee it now. And there are other moments, like I think that conversation you were talking about, Heather, that is clearly not Natasha Kinski doing the ADR for that.

That is somebody doing a Natasha Kinski impression. The voice is too high pitched. It's like, no, that is definitely not her doing the ADR there. Well, when she talks towards the end of the film, and I think I even asked Schrader about this. It's been a while since I interviewed him about this one.

But I was I believe I asked him about her voice because her voice does lower a lot towards the end of this movie. And I don't know if that's an effect. if that's her just pitching herself low, if that's just her voice and how she decided to perform it. But yeah, I definitely noticed that she goes very low towards the end of this when she's kind of coming back for John Hurd at the end of this. And I would think another thing, speaking of dream imagery and stuff, I think the use of the Steadicam here really adds to the dream imagery. I mean, we're just, what, two years north of The Shining, and they're using the Steadicam very effectively, especially when it comes to paul going up the stairs and we get a shot a couple shots of him going up these stairs there's one where he's leading her up there before they do the whole uh that whole bizarre juggling thing that they like to do i i really found that to be fascinating there's also a moment where we're following paul up the stairs Just watching his ass the whole time, and I so was thinking of Norman Bates in Psycho, and just the way that we follow Anthony Perkins and especially see that kind of swish of his ass.

There was also the shot, the one that really caught my eye for a Steadicam, or it's probably not a Steadicam, it's probably on a jib, is when they're in the zoo and John Larroquette is bitching about what they're going to do with the leopard tiger panther or whatever. and it goes from one floor down that spiral staircase, down to another floor, and then down to another floor into the cage, all in one long, maybe three-minute-long uncut shot. And I thought, that is just a fantastic-looking shot. Yeah, there are so many fantastic shots in this film, which is why, like, there are at least, to me, two or three what I'm going to call egregious cross-dissolves. that did not work and felt abrupt. It's almost like if you, I can only think in terms of like nonlinear editing, cause that's what I'm personally experienced with.

Obviously this is film, so it's linear editing, but it's like if you, when you put a transition on nonlinear and you shorten it to be like 10 seconds for a little, little blip of a transition, some of those cross dissolves felt like that. And to me, it just felt there's a rhythm. There are rhythms of this film that don't work. The things that work in this film, I think, are tremendous. But, like, Irina is our main character, but I feel like this is a great example.

I feel like with some of the characters, the actors are great. This is a phenomenal cast. This is a wonderful cast. And I feel like some of the writing is uneven. And it feels weird to me to say that, because these are two writers I love.

But. It's like you can tell that there were versions of the script. There were multiple versions of the script because there's some inconsistencies. And Irina, in some ways, like if she feels real to us, it's I think 100% more due to Kinski's performance than it is the writing. Because I feel like, I don't know if this is going to sound strange, I feel like Schrader in particular, I don't think he can understand the interior feelings, the inner feelings of a female character like Irina.

There's something that feels to me a little hollow. I won't disagree with that. And I do agree with you that it is a very uneven match when it comes to Schrader or whoever. And I would imagine it's Schrader who's doing the rewrites on this versus the Ormsby. I mean, the Ormsby script basically starts, like I said, 15 minutes in.

It starts with the prostitute going up to the room and By the way, the prostitute lives in that first draft of the script. She may not be dancing ever again. She gets her leg mauled pretty good, but there's not that gratuitous shot with her bra popping open. Which was ridiculous. I thought she lived in the movie, too.

She was falling down the stairs with her ankle all ripped up and the cops say she's going to live. The prostitute does live in the movie. That That's why he doesn't transform and he's taken to the zoo because he didn't kill her. Now, the lady at the cemetery, that's a different one. The lady he was photographing.

But no, the hooker lived. A.K.A. Lynn Lowry, which that would be a small quibble. I do feel like Lynn Lowry is a little wasted in this because Lynn Lowry is fantastic. At least we get to see her.

Some is better than none. Yeah, the whole bra popping thing was kind of Another cross dissolve. The way the camera zooms in on her screaming face and it just does a quick cross dissolve. Weird. It doesn't make that just butt cut it just to just make it go to just slam into another shot.

Not to be like little miss editing nerd. No, no, that's fine. Which is surprising because it was Bud Smith was the supervising editor, but he was the supervisor. He wasn't actual hands on the film, I don't think. Right.

Well, a lot of the editing's great in this film. Like, I think as a whole, that's why I think when things don't work, it stands out more than it would in a B or C quality film, because the stuff that's great in this film is phenomenal. So when the things don't work, I think it's more of a contrast. Yeah. And by the way, I did ask Lynn Lowry to be on this.

Unfortunately, I never heard back from her. I guess she's off Facebook or just not paying attention to Messenger anymore. We went back and forth years ago. The same thing with Ormsby. He agreed to an interview, but then it's been like, okay, when are you available?

And it's like, I'm still hoping, I'm holding out hope that by the time this comes out, I'll have been able to sit down with him. Obviously, John Heard is gone. I had interviewed Annette O'Toole before, but was unable to get back in touch with her. So it's like, strikeout after strikeout thank god schrader said yes he'll he did the interview so not the best quality in the world it's very much recorded over a phone but hey something's better than nothing right. You take take what you can get absolutely but heather you brought up the cast earlier so i already mentioned like there's you know the small bit part for john larroquette who was nobody at the time Did either of you catch Ray Wise's cameo?

You did, Heather. All right. Well, I did post fact because I remember thinking that voice sounded familiar. But everybody listening, you see like one of the I believe it's an orangutan has a tiny little black and white TV and it's enclosure and is watching a soap opera. And I was like, that voice is familiar.

But then I kind of and then going through the credits. i was like i had my holy shit mom i'm like right fucking wise this was the same year he was in swamp thing and so it wild that he's basically in all but of a cameo in his film the same year he's basically. Elite Well, I mean, in Swamp Thing, Dick Durrock does most of the movie. Ray Wise is really only in like 10 minutes of it, but I know what you mean. No, no, no, it does. But I actually, because I recognized him in the real shitty soap opera The Orangutan was watching, and I didn't know if that was like a real soap opera that they had just licensed.

So I actually went and looked up and found, no, they actually shot those scenes for the crappy soap opera for The Orangutan to watch. And That's some dedication to a throwaway gag, I think. No kidding. No kidding. I don't even know.

I'm so glad you mentioned John Larroquette because I love John Larroquette and he already is looking like Dan Fielding and kind of acting like Dan Fielding a little bit. Yeah, it's like it's wicked. And I mean, John Larroquette's a great actor who could do a lot more than Dan Fielding, obviously. But it's so funny because the 80s time period, it's like, holy shit, like he's basically like a really pissy Dan Fielding here. I love spotting Barry Berenson later.

In the film. It's the lady that manages the spa that lets Hernando Tull's characters in. So, yeah. Like, and just, yeah. And Malcolm McDowell.

Okay, the reason I watched this film, in some ways, I don't know if you guys did this with this film, I kept fantasy booking. I'm like, what are, because, and this is kind of a testament to the talent in this film, like the great talent of the writing. that is there is that this world created, there's so much more that you could do with it. And this film's two hours long. It's a good, healthy-sized film. But Paul is such an interesting character.

And I feel like McDowell, I would love to see more of him. Oh, yeah. Well, that's the thing. Sorry, go ahead, Josh. Annette O'Toole was my favorite character in this.

I loved her, and I thought, you know, This is the same year as 48 Hours where she's like second banana. I wouldn't call her a second banana in this, but I do find it funny that both in this and 48 Hours she takes her top off in the same year. But maybe that's just the guy in me. But I really felt bad for her character. You know, she clearly is, I don't know if in love with John Heard, but she has a thing for him and he just can't see her as anything more than maybe a fuck buddy.

You can kind of feel it through her performance that she is really, really hurt when Tasha Kinski enters the picture. Yeah, and that's the thing is that I started to say, and I totally quit saying, was we start with the prostitute. We start with that incident and then the phone call to the zoo. And it's, you know, hey, come on out here. We have this wild animal.

And the whole beginning of the screenplay is very intricate. Like, it goes on for almost the entire act, first act of the screenplay, of them trying to get this leopard out of this room. So, like, we have the whole thing. He's being, instead of going up a ladder, he's being lowered down on a rope, and he's going to try to get in and use his little dart gun and all this kind of stuff. Eventually, they have to move a cage in front of the door, and a Netto Tools character does that.

But there is all of this back and forth between the John Heard character, the Annette O'Toole character, and the Ed Begley character, or Ed Begley Jr., I should say, where it is all about the love triangle that's going on. And just any sort of attention that Annette O'Toole is playing to Ed Begley Jr., that rubs John Heard the wrong way. He's kind of getting back at her with the Natasha Kinski character. It's amazing that we don't have Irina being introduced until, I don't know, almost the end of Act 1 going into Act 2, which means we don't get Paul until much later after that. I don't know if it was just like, hey, we've got Malcolm McDowell, we've got to put him earlier in the film, or what it was.

But when you said that Irina is our main character, I don't know if it would have read that way if we had kept that original beginning of it, because I think John Heard kind of becomes our main character. And it's interesting that it's almost a struggle for me between the Heard narrative and the Arena narrative, the Natasha Kinski narrative, where it's like, okay, whose movie is this? Who actually is the star? I agree with you. I think Natasha Kinski is the star of this film.

She is the main character. Her face is on the poster, all that kind of stuff. But it's interesting how, like, he kind of is second fiddle, but he's playing a very loud fiddle, let's say it that way. Oh, God. And I love John Heard, like, in general.

Like, I think he is so underrated. I mean, I actually would say the same thing about McDowell. I mean, those two are film lovers and cinephiles, like, we know, you know? But I think to the average person, I mean, when John Heard died a few years ago, it vexed me so much because all the headlines were like, Basically, oh, yeah. And I'm like, man, fuck you.

Like, this guy has been Cutter's way. Come on. Like, but so many other movies. And yeah, I would rather see. Oh, God, that makes me think of Chet Toon.

We just lost Garrett Graham. Oh, love you, Garrett Graham. Yeah, John Heard's amazing. And I love getting to see him as one of the leads. Like, that's such a gift.

And he is definitely, I will say further comments for the second act of this podcast, but I will say I do think he is an improvement over the original Oliver from the Luton Tournée. There is the weirdness, though, with his character in this film is that we have a line where he says he prefers the company of animals to people, which same. Relatable. But but yet. His character is, you know, especially, like, for the first half of the film, we see him joking around with his co-workers and smiling and interacting.

And he seems to have, like, he winks at Alice, at Annetta Tool's character, when he's going up the ladder to try and, you know, put a tranquilizer dart into the panther, the leopard. If anybody's listening and it's like, why do we keep messing up the species of this animal? In our defense, it was not even what it was supposed to be. Did they take like a bobcat or a mountain lion and spray painted it black or something? Legit, like Annette O'Toole said in an interview, we have, like, it's not just us making this up.

So if we get confused over the species, imagine how the podcast felt. But they said panthers are borderline untrainable. I think they used a leopard who they dyed black because they were trainable. I think that's how it went. But I think, I know in the novelization, it's a panther.

They are panthers. So we should just call them panthers. They're panther form, they're cat form. And the only special effect that comes with the panther that I think didn't work is the necropsy at the end. It's very, yeah, this is a special effect look.

And apparently, did you guys catch the little blooper? Now, I read about it online. I didn't think it was real. During the necropsy, there's a blooper. I went back and you do catch it.

Because they have a real sedated panther on the autopsy table, the necropsy table. And when he pulls it out, you hear somebody off camera go, careful! You can just hear it very because it's a real panther. And I think he was doing it too fast and too rough. And then they switched to the obviously fake one.

And I was like, oh, yeah, that effect doesn't hold up in a movie that otherwise has really, really good effect. The necropsy effect just didn't work for me. I can't believe that audio is still just hanging out there. I did not catch that. I did catch one of the little toe beans move in. of the sedated but but I don't know if that's just because I'm a cat mama that's going to be looking at the beans but going back to Paul because and this is where I do find the world building that Schrader and Ormsby did that because we don't have a Paul in the original Luton film we don't have the Malcolm McDowell character the whole circus background like Mike you're talking about The little sort of them juggling together and doing this sort of morbid.

The rhyme they did almost made me think of Arabal. It totally felt Viva La Muerte to me. And, you know, but it's kind of a cute scene. And then you find out later on that their parents were brother and sister because they are cat people. And the whole thing with this film is if you are of this lineage, you can mate with only your kind.

If you mate with a human, you will murder them. You will devour them. Apparently at the crotch, because we have that fun little detail in the film when the police find some of Paul's victims and how a lot of the groin area has been aggressively chewed at. Yeah. Nice little.

That feels very straighter to me. Yeah. Oh, my. Yeah. But i love i mean it's a gruesome detail but that's a great detail of just sort of expanding this world and again i'd.

Almost be like boy i feel like we could kind of cut out. Some of the love stuff and i would love to see some Who am I to tell freaking anybody to do anything, especially Paul Schrader or Alan Irmsby for that matter. But to see the circus, the idea of these werecats being in a circus that are incestuous is, I don't know, maybe it's the geek love fan in me. It's a Catherine Dunn novel here. But yeah, I, but it's weird because like, Irina clearly remembers that rhyme, but then later on she is, I don't know if maybe it's a denial on her part where she's like, I'm not even sure if that's my brother.

It's clearly her brother. Is that it? The way he has to introduce himself. I mean, that's one of the strangest lines in the whole movie. And it's the first line of the movie when he hangs up the phone on her and he goes, I'm Paul.

And it's just like, okay. It's like, did you not know who this guy was? Okay. Well, and then you get the creepy, I used to have fantasies about you as a little girl, and it's like, me too, it's like, okay, I get what, you know, the innocent girl was saying, but once you know what the movie's about, it's a very loaded line between her and her brother, too. Well, even, and I love that Ruby Dee's character, who I had to, I kept hearing, I was like, Tamale?

It's Tamale, I don't know, I Yeah, and in the screenplay, he spells it F-E-M-O-L-L-Y. And as I'm reading it, I'm just like, was she just named female? And they mispronounce it. Because my wife has had clients named strange names like that, including F-E-M-O-L-L-Y. So it is not an unprecedented name, which is kind of crazy.

That's... Oh, it's... Okay. Okay. That was interesting, because I got confused looking at the, of course, IMDb is not God, and everybody should always know that.

But it's spelled like F-E-M-A-L-E on that, and so that made me even more confused. But Ruby Dee! The great Ruby Dee! I love Ruby Dee, and I love the look on her face when that whole fantasy exchange comes up. Like, Ruby's kind of the audience for a minute, where she's just like, hmm?

Well, there's also the question about her character, Now, obviously, she knows what, you know, Paul is. She knows, you know, he's killing people. But how involved is she in all this? It's never really spelled out. Is she like the Renfield to his Dracula?

Or is she just turning a blind eye and like, look, I know what you did last night. Let's clean this up and move on. Yeah, I picture her as a Renfield. And I want to say that she... there's a line in the screenplay about them being together for like a long time like hundreds of years almost this kind of let the right one in kind of a relationship where you've got the vampire like you're saying like the the renfield and the vampire type of thing because yeah it definitely feels like she kind of comes with the family kind of thing and yeah she must totally know everything that's going on inside of that house. Oh, see, now I want somebody to expand that part of the story.

Is she? Oh, this is the unanswered questions in some ways are just as just as much, if not more fascinating than the answered questions such as life. I read the novelization in the 90s, and I can't remember if they expand on her character or not. How dare you? How dare you not remember something from the 90s?

For God's sake. It was only 35 to 40 years ago. I mean. Pull your head out of your ass here, Josh. Come on.

But I also like the fact that my memory now, obviously, Paul's character, when he turns into a panther, is in a bunch of the movie. I've forgotten just how little Malcolm McDowell is actually in the movie, like as the actor. And, you know, I had the plot problems as well. Like, OK, after he kills Ed Begley Jr., how does he get out of his cell? And they have cameras on all the cells.

Nobody saw him getting out of his panther cage, but fine, whatever. Even the logic of they have to mate and then kill doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about it. But, like, there are moments where he's turned into a human from a cat and a cat to a human where it's like, but I thought the rules said you couldn't do that at will, but you just did. Right. Well, and Irina does it later on. too like with the whole pool thing where it's like well wait did she just bang somebody real quick to turn into a panther and then kill somebody like within 30 seconds to be yeah there's some definite inconsistencies with that like the logic some of the leaps of logic though because at first you know like the whole thing with the when Paul so now we can get to this when you know Paul ends up getting killed And she has this dream sequence, what the dream sequence is done, really.

First of all, shame on you for judging me and my lack of any skin pigmentation. But yeah, so it's kind of like, well, yeah, families, you know, that's how truth and history tend to be handled anyway, is things get rashamoned pretty quick. So looking upon that way, well, yeah, maybe Paul's understanding of it is going to be different. That's a more sort of magical way of their heritage of just being like, oh, well, these babies were sacrificed. And the leopards, you know, the cats ate them and then sort of became sort of like a transmutation.

And I was like, well, that's a little, that's, I guess, sacrificing babies and children's a little nicer than being sexually assaulted by a cat. What a twisted film. You know, Josh, I love that you mentioned that. God bless this film. I do appreciate that because you're right.

I mean, there's still, we're always going to have artists and filmmakers make challenging films. But we do live in an era now where you definitely have to go more outside the mainstream. Cinema for that. And that's not a bad thing. It just is what it is.

Modern Universal would never greenlight this. I'm actually surprised they still let it be out on Blu-ray and stuff like that. Because, I mean, look what Fox has been doing to Fight Club. They've been trying to memory hole that movie ever since Disney bought it. You know, the Blu-ray is really obscure.

You can't find it in repertory theaters. I'm actually surprised Universal hasn't tried to do that with cat people yet. I don't know. It's pretty innocuous to me. Yeah, well, and I think can be the great kind of subversive genre.

And so in a lot of ways, I think that's why a lot of us are kind of gravitate towards it. Or you can kind of I mean, that's the genius of the original film, too, is using a supernatural sort of construct. To work in elements that otherwise censors and money men would be like, oh, hold up. Oh, I saw the same thing. Yes.

When I watched the original, which I watched after this one, I saw the same thing. Like, I can't believe in 1942 they let him get away with all the sexual repression. I mean, yeah, they're not discussing it in, you know, open terms, but. It's a very adult movie about sexual repression, sexual fantasies. And under the Hays Code, I'm shocked that they were able to get away with any of that.

But like Heather said, it was all cloaked in metaphor. It was that whole Rod Serling thing. We can't talk about racism in the 60s, but if it's an alien that we're racist against, we can talk about that on TV. The one thing I was very surprised about is, you know, you mentioned Famali, the Ruby Dee character. I mentioned before, this is all set in New Orleans.

Irina takes a, you know, kind of a tour, and then she goes to one of the churches. And I think, yeah, well, obviously there's scenes in a cemetery. So we've got, like, the flavor of New Orleans, and it's a really great setting for all this stuff. I'm just so glad because... from what I understand, Roger Vadim at one point was going to be the director of this. Now I love Vadim, but he was going to lean into new Orleans and the voodoo.

And I'm, I have a real thing about voodoo where I'm just like, I'm not a big fan of voodoo. Like even like the whole check episode with the voodoo stuff. It's just like, yeah, this is kind of weak sauce, you know? And I'm just so glad because it feels like we almost have too many things happening in this movie already. when it comes to even just like, well, how does Paul fit into this? And how about the cat history?

And what about this relationship with Ed Begley Jr.? And all this kind of stuff. It's like, if we threw voodoo on top of everything else, it's just like, oh, for God's sakes. I would rather, I know that we replaced voodoo probably with the whole cradle of civilization stuff, but I'm okay with that. I'm really okay with us completely going away from voodoo.

I think just having this set in New Orleans just really adds more to the atmosphere I love some of these shots where they've got those like wrought iron balconies and things with the ferns and all that it's just like okay this is really it plays into voodoo as much as like Wild at Heart plays into voodoo which means really not very much at all but also using new orleans as this backdrop to really say like hey this is different you know like you are in a different part of the world there is this almost supernatural overtone to everything but without having to go into the supernatural obviously people that can turn into cats there's something that's different there But, like, you know, we're already having problems with the rules, you know?

I don't want to sound like fucking, not Jamie Oliver, what's that guy's name from Scream? Oh, I know who you're talking about. The kid from The Mask, right. I don't want to sound like I'm Jamie Kennedy just being like, hey, there are rules you have to follow, but it's like, yeah, it's like what Malcolm McDowell says is different than this, and then, yeah, she can transform at will, but it's like, okay, you know, like, That's where we get into trouble with this movie. It's like, OK, you're setting up rules, but then you're immediately breaking them.

So like if we just added voodoo into shit, too, it'd be like, OK, well, now we have to talk about voodoo dolls. And oh, there's a dead chicken on the door and all that kind of stuff. We already have too many trappings. I actually I actually put in my notes the movie moves too slow and too fast simultaneously. I agree.

Yeah, I will say on a side note, Mike, are you a fan of the song Voodoo by Godsmack? Don't is that voodoo people no no i'm thinking of i'm thinking of that that prodigy song i do like the prodigy song. But i don't know about the god smack song no you're fine with that god smack lord of lords of acid voodoo use a good album. As well yeah that's that's what i was thinking heather when you brought that up i'm like i have that cd on the shelf. Right it's so it's Yeah, no, agreed.

And I. Have seen people be able to use voodoo as a compelling element, but that one's a little tricky because, A, this is a faith system. This is a system for people in real life. And so a lot of times, especially older films, tend to lean into it in kind of a racist way, which is very cringe and not cool. And But those films also don't really bother to research voodoo much more than just going into a tourist shop in the French Quarter.

Yeah, no, I do love the atmosphere. And that church, that exterior of that church with the green sign made me... I love it. It's beautiful. And it made me think of John Kennedy Toole.

I hope I'm getting his name right. Confederacy of Dunces. It made me think of his work. I can see that. Well, what was the second book that he wrote?

Wasn't that called? There you go. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Very, very neon Bible.

And, but see, seeing those details, I think that's why I wanted more kind of worth Paul. Cause we find out through exposition that he worked at that church and he was, he, one of the police officers refer to him as a religious fanatic, but I'm like, but we don't see any of that with Paul when we see him. And I kind of, I mean, this is going to be the most cliche criticism, but I would love more showing and not telling with some of this. Well, even when it comes to the serial killer stuff, it's like, okay, well, here's the torture dungeon and here's all these bones piled up. And it's like, okay, well, how do we get to the bones?

Exactly. Yeah. And it wouldn't have to be an extended scene. I mean, just like a little flash of, okay, what is he doing down there? And then you cut to like Somali. having a look on her face.

And it could be a look of just like, this is the fate I'm resigned to, but you're queasy about it. It could just be, maybe she turns up the TV louder and just goes into full-on disassociation. Are you saying Fomalia might be like one of the resurrected people in the prophecy that Christopher Walken brings that absolutely do not want to still be alive, but he forces them to? Because when you were saying that, that's immediately what I thought of. I think.

That's, I've got, I do, it's been forever since I've watched A Prophecy. I did love that movie as a teenager. The first three are good, then you can stop. I forgot that there were. Actually, I do need, which one has Tom Toles in it?

There is one that's got Tom Toles in it that I do want to see just because it's Tom Toles. Well, Glenn Danzig is in the second one, and so is Eric Roberts, but the third one has Brad Dourif. Oh my God. Okay, stop it. I'm buying it.

Give me the trilogy. Tony Todd and Pinhead show up in four and five, but they're awful. Wait, is it Doug Bradley as Pinhead? Because that I might watch. Doug Bradley is a I don't know if he's Chechen or something like that.

He's he's a corrupt cop over in Eastern Europe because they shot the four and five in Eastern Europe because, you know, tax breaks. Right. That's fair. That Oh, okay. Yeah, I did not expect leaving this podcast wanting to watch the Prophecy sequels.

The first three, I'll say, actually fit together as a pretty good trilogy. They actually took care to deal with the continuity and everything. So one, two, and three, then you can just stop. But you were talking about Voodoo earlier. Just randomly, my girlfriend had never seen it, and I hadn't seen it in 30 years.

We watched The Believer. about two, three weeks ago. And I have no idea how accurate that is with voodoo and Santeria and all that. But what you were talking about, how it's kind of racist the way it's portrayed? Yeah, The Believers kind of portrays it, even though most of the characters are white, kind of comes across as a little bit of a racist portrayal, way more than like Serpent in the Rainbow would. Oh, yeah.

There's a really good documentary out there that I think is just now on Kino Lorber called called Black Zombie that really goes into the racist overtones of zombies and how they're portrayed in films and then gives a very respectful kind of portrayal of what actual voodoo is like. And like you're saying, Heather, it's like, this is our religion. Can you maybe not make, like, a joke out of our whole thing or use it as your engine for your horror film? Because, yeah, that definitely happens a lot. Yeah.

Well, and especially because realistically, the You're going to find very few organized religion, especially, that doesn't have some things about it where if you're not in that faith system, you're going to look at it like, oh, what? That's crazy. Oh, yeah. Well, I hear there's one religion where every week they get together and they all pretend to eat the body of the man that was supposed to be their savior. It's really weird.

And they drink his blood. So bizarre. Absolutely bizarre. This is why I'm a member of the Church of Subgenius. I'm an ordained minister in the Church of the Subgenius.

I can, like, gay marry people and stuff. I just haven't had an opportunity to do that yet. That's beautiful. Anybody listening that you love Paul Schrader and being married by a minister of the Subgenius Church? Yes, I actually went through the process.

It was $ 25 and a 15-minute course. Blessed. Though, real quick, going back to the New Orleans atmosphere of cat people and Mike, All the yes to everything you said. And the atmosphere of it. New Orleans has such a beautiful atmosphere.

But this also ties back to kind of what you were saying earlier, Josh, with the Italian horror films. Because New Orleans, I feel like, should be in more horror films. Because I think about the atmosphere it provides in both Lombardo Bava's Macabre. which is such a great Southern Gothic film. I love Macabre. And the city almost feels like a character in that film to me, but not in any sort of touristy, hackneyed way.

It's very much just sort of the ambience of it, as well as the beyond. Going back to Fulci. I was just going to bring that up. I couldn't remember if that was New Orleans or not, but that's all atmosphere, Heather. I mean, the story doesn't make any sense, but you don't care because you're in it.

And I think House by the Cemetery and maybe Gates of Hell are also gnarly. That would make sense. As a Columbo fan, I get a big chuckle out of this movie because Ed Begley Jr. was, I think it was in two episodes, but he was definitely in one episode where he was an animal control officer and they were watching these two Dobermans that had been used as a murder weapon in How to Dial a Murderer. Nicole Williams is the murderer. And So when I see him in front of the cage with the leopard that's about to rip his arm off, I'm just like, oh, it's kind of like Laurel and Hardy's Revenge from that episode.

Those were the dogs' names. So I'm just like, it's so funny to see him in that same uniform and everything, but just probably 10 years. No, not even 10 years later. It's probably only like four or five years later, because that was like season seven. So yeah, it was pretty funny to see him in this.

And then one other thing, you know, I mentioned that woman before, the Miermana woman. I didn't notice until I was watching it last time that we have this great shot of Annette O'Toole and Natasha Kinski at this restaurant, I guess, that's on zoo property. They're probably painting an arm and a leg for this if they are actually still at the zoo. Hopefully they're off campus. But you see them, and then the camera turns around to a mirror.

And that's when the woman who comes up and says, me or mana, is visible. She's not visible in that original shot. She's only visible once you get into the mirror version of the shot, which is such a nice like supernatural thing again it's almost like the reverse of a vampire it's like you only see her in the mirror you don't see. Her in real life right that's a whole beautiful shot too. And i want to know there's something in the movie some somebody told me when i complained about this that it's meant to be a joke so after you know she Her and John Heard, he's trying to give her the Tylenol in his office and all that.

And he takes her out to dinner and she says, I don't eat meat. And then they immediately go to a seafood place. I started thinking, but isn't seafood meat? Is that meant to be a joke or is that some weird nitpick that seafood doesn't count as meat? And by no, and this is why I forgot, because this was such a silly statement, but that is like the most gorgeous woman I think I have ever seen.

Like, and I mean, that's in a room with the Netto tool and it's Sasha Kinski. And they picked a woman that looks like, she almost reminds me of the, one of the mothers that we see in Inferno going and speaking of Italian horror, the one with the cat. I cannot remember that actress's name right off the top of my head. It's funny because I was thinking she looks a lot like Alita Valdi or Vali. Yeah, even though by that time she would have been post-Sysperia, but I'm thinking of, like, 1950s third-man, eyes-without-a-face version of Alita Valli and just how gorgeous she was.

Yeah, because I agree, that woman is just so striking. And she... She looks like she came out of the Conformist, really. Yeah. She also looks like she could have come out of the Val Luton.

One, too. Because that is just... She also kind of reminds me a little bit of Delphine Sereig. Not so much, like, as far as looking as anything like her, but that same sort of almost ethereal, like, feminine allure. Like, there's this regalness about her.

It's just like, this is not somebody from our world. They are too perfect for... looking i mean which sasha kinski's pretty close to that but yeah oh that was the other thing is alice at one point and then a tool's character says like oh i i'm gonna paraphrase this about arena just saying oh well you know everything you know everything comes to her or something it's basically alluding the fact that i guess that because arena looks like in the sasha kinski That she never has a problem with men. But I'm thinking, girl, you look like Annette O'Toole. Oh, yeah. You don't have that problem either.

Well, she even has that little line that, you know, sometimes she tells guys, you know, that she's a lesbian just to get them to leave. You know, and that's 1982. Nowadays, you tell that to a girl, that'll turn the guy on even more. You're going to have a harder time getting him to leave you alone now. Oh, God.

Well, even then, I think you'd still get some dumbass that'd be like, you know, and it's like, no, Clem, get out. I didn't think bro culture was as heavy in 82. But there's also something about Natasha Kinski. Did you guys watch the Siskel and Ebert review of this movie? Oh, God, no.

I did. They both liked it. But they made a statement that I think was overselling it. Now, I don't think Natasha Kinski is a bad actress. I think in this movie, she's overshadowed by all the talent around her.

I think, you know, Malcolm McDowell and John Heard and Annette O'Toole and everybody are out acting her, but that's not her fault. But they said she's the Marilyn Monroe of the 80s. And I thought, I think that's overselling her a little bit. That's not to insult her, but really? Really?

I feel like Nastasha got stalked by a lot of older dudes that got very enamored with her, is what that sounds like to me. I'm not saying they literally stalked her, but I feel like she just... And part of that's her career. Like how some of the earlier roles she had, like Stay As You Are with Marcello Mastroianni, which isn't a bad film, but she is somebody who was always sexualized, even when she shouldn't have been because she was not of age. Right.

And so at least in Cat People, she is of age, but she's still only like 20. She's still really young. And, you know, but she does have a, you know, that's not a flaw on her part. It's a good performance. The Marilyn Monroe of the 80s does feel.

That's why I don't watch the Cisco Ebert reviews. I mean, I respect those guys, but I feel like anytime I'm like, let me see what they have to say about something. I end up being perplexed at best. Or in the case of their Liquid Sky review, I literally turned into Yosemite Sam. Okay, not literally, but I did kind of channel him, except with a lot of F-bombs.

So there are certain genres I don't think those two were meant to visit. Even though one of them wrote one of the greatest cult films of all time. Go figure. What's interesting with Natasha Yukinsky, I only really remember three films that she was in. And it was, you know, I was born in 72, so as I'm coming of age, like, Tess was out when I was, what, seven, I guess?

Because I was 79? Sorry, math. And then, you know, that, and then Cat. People in 82, and Paris, Texas in 84. You know, the thing about Marilyn Monroe is she had a longer career, I think.

Like, Natasha Kinski is still out there acting as far as I know but it's like after Paris Texas I don't really remember too many other big things that she was in whereas like you know I can probably name 10 films that Marilyn Monroe was in and you know and and I'm also curious about what they mean by the Marilyn Monroe is it just that she's a striking beauty or are they trying to like besmirch because a lot of people say that Marilyn Monroe is a bad actress I thought she was a phenomenal. Actress no I the no they were putting it that she dominated the screen and that she had such a screen presence that that's what they were talking about and natasha got because i watch a lot of more direct-to-video trash than you do mike you know from the 90s and that natasha natasha's in a lot of that stuff like if have you ever seen dot com for murder from like i don't know 2001 2002 It's rear window for the Internet.

And Natasha is the main character. And they have her the whole time in a wheelchair with a broken leg and giant big bulky sweaters and an obvious wig on. And it's like, so are you trying to make her unattractive? Because that's what you're doing here. It still probably didn't work.

That bone structure. Oh, God, yeah. I guess I do remember she was also in The Moon in the Gutter, which was a David Goodis adaptation. I think that was her and Gerard Depardieu. And then she was in Unfaithfully Yours?

Was that a remake of a Weber film? Yes, it was. Yes, I tried. Mike, goddammit, I have blocked that remake existing, and you just reminded. Me of that movie being Unfaithfully Yours.

Oh my god. The remake, not the original. Yeah, it wasn't Weber. It was Preston Sturgis' film. Jesus Christ.

Wow. She was in, also, I always remember her for being in One from the Heart. The Hotel New Hampshire, but she's in a bear suit, which is amazing. actually an early role to The Devil, A Daughter, which, again, had her naked and she, what the fuck, people, the 70s were unhinged. And the 70s were unhinged in good ways and bad ways. That one, you know, having her fully naked at that age, not a good thing.

It wasn't Natasha Kinski, but that's how I felt when I first was watching Bolero. It's Olivia Diabo. She's 15. And I know where they shot this in Europe, that was legal. But I'm just like, she's full-on sex scenes.

And it's like, no, this is uncomfortable. Yeah, nobody was looking after people. Blame it on Rio. Oh, Jesus Christ. Well, you mentioned Arabal before, and with the kind of sexualization of children, but really more the circus setting and the background of R2. cat people i was thinking of hodorowski and santa sangre and it feels like shit if if that no see no shade of against sorry no shade against paul schrader but like can you imagine this film in the hands of somebody like a hodorowski.

Oh my god my your words to my heart and soul because you know i love hodorowski and hodorowski would have done something It would have been, I think, a lot less sexual in an erotic sense. It would have been, you know, sexuality obviously exists in Hrvatsky's universe, but it always is more, there's always something else going on attached to it. It would have been more of about, I think, like a possible either transference of power. It would have had a power structure feel to it, which that's here in Capybara a little bit when Paul, or Paul, Oliver ends up tying her, but it But yeah, it doesn't quite... I'm mystified how much this film is called erotic, by the way, because I feel like films can have a lot of sexuality and not be erotic.

I think a lot of films have sex in them and are erotic. I love some of those films, too, but yeah. But I do find it interesting. I don't know. It's one of those things where I don't think it 100% works, but I do think it's interesting.

I think some of it works. I don't know if I necessarily. Buy or bought... Like, the chemistry between her and Oliver. And that's nothing against the actors.

John Hurt's a powerhouse. I love him. John Hurt. And I think Kinski did great. I think Natasha Kinski's a really good actress.

But that was. Something that felt really fast, where it's like, oh, here's this quirky girl. I'm madly in love with you. I think... I don't know if Mike, this was in the screenplay, but I think that'll quote me on this.

If the novelization doesn't have it, I think she exuded some sort of a pheromone that made men fall in love with her. I can't remember if that was in one of the screenplays or the novelization, but that would make sense why he was so into her so quick. And I also, to your point, Heather, I love that scene where she's trying to take him to bed and she's circling him like a predator and And he's kind of side eyeing her. He he's turned on, but he's also a little scared and he's not sure what he's going to do. Yeah.

Yeah. No, that's something I love. I noticed both her and Malcolm McDowell did is there's little gestures. They kind of pepper their performance with little feline. Nothing too obvious.

You don't see them like raise up a back leg. They start licking their hands and stuff. Meow! Yeah. She doesn't, like, shake her fanny and go, meow!

You know, or anything like that. Even though there's, like, pop culture cat references all over the place. There's, like, Top Cat on television. At one point... Oh, is it at the train station you hear?

Or somebody's watching something and you hear, like, talks about cats on a television. I was just like, okay. Yeah, the. Oh, no, just the motel manager where the sex worker gets killed. He's got, and this is because glorious HD, I don't know if this is something I would have caught on the, I definitely didn't catch on VHS.

He's got a calendar for the Pussycat Lounge. Heather, the scene I loved the most cat wise was when Malcolm McDowell jumps through her window. The way she leaps up onto the bed. Yes. It is absolutely like how a predator cat that is startled would do it.

And I wonder if she had to practice that, you know, or I wonder how many takes it took to get that right. Because that I can only imagine is not an easy position to get into from a laying down position. Oh, no. I know exactly what's saying it. I love that, too.

Her physicality. Perfect right there. Yeah. And the way that she kind of, like, before she ends up stabbing Paul, the way she kind of nudges her head a little bit, kind of like when cats are kind of, like, marketing you with their scent. I was like, oh, that's such a kitty cat thing.

I will say, whenever they show the close-ups of the actual big cats, like, you know, roaring and growling. And I don't know if this is just a me thing. I always have a hard time finding cats. I don't think cats are scary. They're adorable.

When you look at, yeah, they got those big fangs, but you ever notice the little tiny teeth that kitty cats have? They got little baby teeth. I have held a baby big cat. Oh, nice. Named Baby King.

They used to have and maybe they still do they had a zoo at the Mirage out in Las Vegas because of it was Siegfried and Roy's secret garden was what they called it and they had you know a lot of animals in there Andrea was trying to take a picture of a lion and the lion for whatever reason was not having it and roared at her and scared the bejesus out of her. And I was not near, but I heard that roar, and I was just like, wow, this guy's not kidding around. It really scared the hell out of me. So, yeah, I agree that, especially watching nature documentaries, where you're just like, oh, look at how cute the kitty is. And even when they're, like, taking down a fucking antelope or whatever, it's like, oh, that's just like when my cat plays.

But, yeah, getting roared at by a big cat, that was really scary. Well, Mike, I can tell you right now, when I die, it's going to be because I tried to pet something I shouldn't have petted. Oh, my God. That's going to be what kills me. Josh, I feel like we are spiritual brothers now and sisters because that I've often said I'm going to end up losing a digit or a limb because I'm like, look at the baby, you know, and it's like, you dumbass, what are you doing?

I mentioned Kolchak before and I was reminded of Kolchak. You know, you mentioned the necropsy and the whole thing of like, arm falling out of the body, which was really fucking cool. And then all of a sudden, all that smoke comes out and the whole thing just disappears. I was just like, that's such a Kolchak ending where it's just like, listen, Vincenzo, I had all the camera, you know, the images, the photos, and then my camera got smashed by the vampire or whatever it was. Like there was always the reason at the end of every Night Stalker episode where it was And let me guess, Carl, you lost the pictures.

But at least in this case, whether they, the cops are never going to figure out that it's supernatural. They're never going to figure out Irena is the Panther, but they know Paul's a serial killer and they're pursuing him as that. If nothing else, it will get written up legally as a whole bunch of serial killings and probably some people that they didn't even know about will be labeled as victims of Paul and, you know, he's going to be in the news. And you know what? Speaking of that, I'm actually surprised nobody has tried to make a sequel to this.

It's basically Universal. They have an entire division. They're 1440 movies that are shitty direct-to-video sequels of franchises that they own. I'm really surprised they haven't tried to follow up to this. We'll talk a little bit more about that after the jump, I think.

But one thing real quick is the other thing that kept going through my head while I was watching this is that line from When Harry Met Sally, when Harry is talking with Billy Crystal is talking with Bruno Kirby. You tell her about other women. Yeah, like the other night. I made love to this woman and it was so incredible. I took her to a place that wasn't human.

She actually meowed. You made a woman meow? Yeah, that's the point. I can say these things to her. And the great thing is, I don't have to lie because I'm not always thinking about how to get her into bed.

I can just be myself. You made a woman meow? That's what I kept thinking of when they were trying to have sex in this movie, but he didn't make her meow. I was so surprised. Oh my God.

Well, that's definitely a step up from the Fifty Shades of Grey novel, which I've never read all the way through, but I read an article about it where they quoted it and there's a thing where he The Christian Grey character, how is it phrased? Not purrs? There's some sort of, like, feline noise he makes, and it just, it all made me think it was a guy with an erection yelling at you, going, Meows! All I'm thinking is, he made her purr three times that night. You know, he knew what he was doing.

Yeah. When she is bad, I hit her with the rolled up newspaper. And when she has to go to the bathroom, I give her the kitty litter. I can't remember what that Steve Martin bit is, but I will definitely be finding that. If only that was in Fifty Shades of Grey.

Yes. Well, you haven't read Fifty Shades of Grey until you've heard Gilbert Gottfried read it to you. Oh my god, that is the best. I love that comedy sketch so much. That's, yeah.

And Heather, do you want to get really depressed? That woman teaches screenwriting at UCLA. The author of one of the worst novels ever written, she teaches writing. Because that's how this works. Well, this is why I always try to encourage anybody, you know, not just in film, if you want to do something creative, you know what?

Do it. Just fucking do it. A lot of these film school, you know, go to learn the film school of life. You know, make a film, DIY it, because otherwise you're just going to get led astray. If you love film, you're going to research it anyways.

That's how all of that, I mean, look at all of our great auteurs. Did Von Sternberg go to UCLA? Come on. Yeah, it's not her to blame, but it's the system is to blame. The whole system's out.

Of You're out of order. She's out of order. You're all out of order. Your Honor, I strenuously object. How do you strenuously object?

The stenographer is just going to put objection. She's not going to type strenuous. All right, guys, let's go ahead and take a break, and we'll be back with an interview with Director Paul Schrader right after these brief messages. Hello, everyone. This is Malcolm McDowell.

I just want to say that this is a request to listeners of the Projection Booth podcast to become patrons of the show via patreon.com. P-A-T-R-E-O-N dot com slash projection booth. That's pretty simple. I think you can do that. It's a great show, and Mike, he provides hours of great entertainment.

So now it's time to give back, my little droogies. Settle down and take a listen and have a sip of the old Molokko, and then you'll be ready for a little of the old in-out, in-out, real horror show. Bye-bye. Can you tell me a little bit where you were in your career? You had just come off of American Gigolo at this point, correct?

Yeah, I, um... No, I, um. Yeah, I just got to the point where it was the first time I had been offered a studio job. Probably the only time I've ever been offered a studio job. It was because of Gigolo.

And I thought it would be interesting to take on a genre assignment like that. To do somebody else's material for somebody else. Right. What I didn't realize until I was deeply into it, that it would be personal and as idiosyncratic as all the others. Were you kind of hoping for a different experience as far as maybe having a little bit more distance?

Well, I was just sort of wondering what it would be like to do a studio genre film. But then I got in there and I started making some fundamental changes. we broke away from the Zahra Bull. And, you know, the biggest change was at some point, you know, the trip I was given had a very conventional ending, which is that the monster trapped in the old dark house and the house burns out and the monster is destroyed. And I remember at one point I thought to myself or said to someone else, wouldn't it be more interesting if instead of killing them off there, he'd make love to it and keeps it in his private zoo. And so once that decision was made, and thankfully you and Bruce all let me get away with doing that, then of course it broke all the genre rules.

And you Did you have any interaction with Alan Ormsby about his script, or was that kind of just handed to you? I did a rewrite with him, and then I got some books after him. How was he to work with? I was talking to him a long time ago. I mean, I don't remember any difficulties.

Right. Well, Can you tell me a little bit about the inspiration from Bertolucci and utilizing... I'm blanking on the gentleman's name right now. What I did with Gigolo is I wanted to make Los Angeles look like Europe here. So I started bringing in an Italian talent, Scarpiati, Merola Arwa.

The. And then I wanted to just continue that. And I was a very good friend with Nando. And I was part of Nando's circle at that time. And it was a chance for Nando to work with a nice, substantial budget really to build and make interesting stuff.

And so that was part of the attraction. What was your relationship with John Bailey before this? Well, I was looking for a cinematographer for J-Lo, and I met with John, somebody that had recommended him. I had never seen Conformer, and he, that time it was very hard to see because it wasn't, it was still in the vaults at Carabao, and Mary J. Lo was at Carabao, so we were able to He was able to get it out of the vault and we screened it.

And as soon as I saw Conforest, I knew the path forward on J-Lo. And of course, it was John who had introduced me to that. Fantastic. It feels like so many elements came together to make it just look like such a different type of film than typical American fare at that time. Yeah, it was really a design-driven film.

One of those films where every... Every single shot, every single location, every single bit of wardrobe, you know, was part of an aesthetic. When you have a moving point of view, you know, you're in the eyes of one character looking at another. I did a shot in the polo scene in J-Lo where Gil gets up and walks away. In the editing room, I realized that I could cut in such a way that even though he was no longer looking at Clark, I could cut in such a way that it looked like he was as he walked away.

And so you were seeing his point of view from the eyes in the back of his head. And it's kind of a scary little effect. And I've been using it at least once in a. Film ever since. Yeah.

They always say don't work with children and animals, and you had to work with so many animals on this film. What was that like, trying to work with all of these different cats? You can't write. This was a studio film, and everybody understood that. I would hate to try to make such a film on an independent.

Budget, but the studio was perfectly aware of that. When you introduce elements like animals into a budget, you've got to be prepared for some surprises. Did you have a consultant that you were using as far as which animals should be used at which times? Because it felt like you had... Okay, go ahead.

I forget the name of the guy. He was the guy for Hollywood. He had a big farm out in the desert. And all those animals. that. They're all...

Each animal had its own specialty. And then, of course, the biggest problem was the big cat because black leopard are loyal and antisocial. So they're very, very hard to work with. And for some of the money shots, like the end of the film. So that is actually a block lever.

For some of the others, when they're walking around, those are mountain lions dive blocks. Right. Because you could not get a block lever to hit a bar. But you could do it to a mountain lion. Right.

And one of the trainers said to me, how do I know if something is not working right? He said, just look at me. I'll be the first one to run. I really appreciated how many backwards shots you used while you were doing Cat People, having the actors act backwards and filming it forwards or vice versa. And where did that come from?

And had you done that before? Well, that also has to do with cat-like motion. It came up. Her bedroom. I believe he jumps in.

Now, that was not possible to do. Right. So you got to do it reverse. So he would jump out and then you run the film backwards and he would jump in. And when we saw that in Daly's, we realized how feline it looked when someone was shot in reverse motion the delicacy of their feet and their steps.

So we used it on other occasions. And I was curious about your relationship working with him and especially where David Bowie fit into the picture. Well, Giorgio and I had a lot of success with the Bondi song, Call Me. And so we were trying to emulate that. And I think that We had done songs in the head credits, so the tail credits.

It would have been a number. One song, but it would have. Established the film. I didn't want to open the film with the cat. Myth, the legend.

The beautiful legend of the cat. And so I saved the song until the very end. We didn't even release it as a single. Bowie later put it on our album and released it as a single. And it became a successful.

In a different time. Yes, yes. When Eduardo said. That, if I had. Put it as a front cover, it would have been a number one hit.

I think he was right. To know that it just is so inspired and just looks so beautiful, and it's got to be all soundstage, correct? Yeah. The last, the glory days of Albert Whitlock, he was the universal math painter. And there are math painters.

Math painters are coming to the end of their career because of the digital technology. But we were still using, we still had to use math painters to match. And there's a fair number of them. So that, like when you first see the whole zoo, the top half of the screen, there's a pancake. The bottom half is a lot of that.

Well, the expert at math paintings was Albert Whitlock, Universal, and he was at toward the end of his career. So you're sort of looking at the end of the math painting look. Albert Whitlock did all the hitch shots back then. So, that thing, I mean. I always appreciated how you kind of brought old Hollywood to new Hollywood with kind of tying in like Whitlock where it's like, okay, yeah.

It's like using that talent that is still so vital and valuable at that time. Yes. I'd be, uh, just very creative. It was really just problem solving. And if you really want to be creative, you have to take the problem correctly.

The, uh, I think creativity is problem solving and reassembling. If you can state the problem correctly, then you can reassemble the pieces. There is no real creativity. There is nothing new. But there are new ways to state the problem and new ways to reassemble the solution.

Coming to that end, as far as there is nothing new, how beholden or did you feel at all beholden to the Tourneur film? I wish I had changed the title. I mean, I should have known better, being a former film critic, that I could never really shake the comparison. I did do one shot as an Easter egg, as a reference to the Tornado film on the trolley train. And then I also did the pool thing.

But I tried to stay as far as possible away from that film. And I still believe that if I had called something out, there wouldn't have been all those comparisons. Yeah, ultimately, what was the reaction to the film at the time? Well, I remember going to a preview in Westwood. I was sitting in the back of the theater with Ruckheimer.

The ending came up, and it was Bully. Coming and all that to us. pseudo-religious mumbo-jumbo, and. The bondage and the zoophilia and the tying up. And two teenage girls in front of us, and one turned to the other and looked at her and said, Oh, my God. I turned to Julie Brooklyn and I said, Maybe we went a little far, Julie.

It is unusual these days to see a R-rated film with so much skin in it, but I kind of long for those days where we weren't as prudish. I mean, there was a market. It's hard to even imagine today when people used to pay money and go to movies to see naked people. Now all you do is hit the wrong key on your keyboard. So that there was always skin quotient that Rady's game used to play, you'd have.

To get an R, but you wanted to get a higher R, because that would break people in. And then when the. Internet came, that just went away. And I think, in fact, the day where more prudence, I think more people are turned on by doing the aboey. Yeah.

Basically, if you see some fucky in movies, part of you as a viewer says, hey, if I wanted to see fucky, I'd be on the internet. Yeah, I like that. I mean, the big, the most powerful. Thing in that film, of course, was the nostalgia and that incandescent. Beauty she had at that time.

I remember once saying to John Bailey, I said, because we were working. On the lighting, I said, John, we don't really need to light this thing. She lights it. I felt that way about her. I fell in love with her.

As directors tend to do, the occupational hazard. And one of the things that. To make a viewer fall in love with a character on screen, well, the easiest way to do it is you fall in love with the character on screen, and then the viewer sees her through your life. And that's why it's an occupation. I mean, ultimately, do you feel that Cat People was a success for you, or is it still a heartbreak because of that relationship you had with Miss Kinski?

No, I wasn't going to get married to someone else and that didn't have it. Because of that. Relationship. And so my life took another direction. I left Los Angeles.

I found a new life. So it was. The Rubicon. It was a defiant change. After Cat People, I had to leave Los Angeles.

I moved to Japan. So it was the end of my infatuation. It was the end of my studio days. I was more or less in the studio system. Blue Collar was universal.

Hardcore was universal. Mary J. Love was paramount. Chap People was universal. So I was working my way up in the studio system.

And then once I left Los Angeles, and once the studio system started falling apart, and Miramax came on the scene, then it all changed. Right. Were you familiar, and I know we're straying from cat people, but I was just curious, were you familiar with the story of Yukio Mishima before you went to Japan? Well, it's in the movie. It's in cat people.

Right. Sorry. Mishima. The book, John Nathan's book, it's in cat people. It's on her bed stand.

I was already thinking of wanting to do that. Nice. I know that you are obviously very familiar with Japanese filmmakers. I remember reading your book, and you've got the whole thing about Ozu and everything. So I just wasn't sure.

My brother went to Kyoto. Right. To avoid Vietnam. So that's how I got. Involved in Japanese culture.

And he was there when Mishima Kimura killed himself. And so I had known it all through him. I had written a script about the pathology of suicidal glory, taxi driver. I wanted to kind of drift back to that subject. Mishima seemed the opposite end of the book here.

Right. Yeah, I can see that. Getting back to Cap People for a minute, can you tell me what it was like working with John Hurd? It was funny. I just saw John Hurd on TV yesterday.

I was watching some show and Who's that over there? I, uh, well, I knew Mary Beth. She was in a film with John. So we've seen two of them. I like that film a lot.

I don't know why I ended up with John on that film. Uh, we knew that from the financing point of view, it was Massagia and the cat. That got the movie made. Um, I'm sure John was not the first choice. And I really, I liked his kind of ordinary Joe aspect.

Just a regular sort of guy, not working class, but an intellectual college man who gets swept up by this. Whirlpool of beauty. And if he had done Richard Gere, it would not have had the same effect. Right. Yeah, he is a very all-American boy in such a nice contrast to Malcolm McDowell as the brother.

And how was McDowell to work with? I liked him a lot. Now, of course, those were druggie days, and so it's a little hard to try and remember it all. But now I'm just trying to think about it. Now, he had, if they put him on the map, and then track work, he was up for anything.

Obviously, anybody that's track working is up for anything. And so he really liked the idea of doing that. I guess maybe it's that cat thing. Yeah. You talked about how this was kind of a chance for you to direct someone else's writing, to do some genre work.

How did that kind of free you up to move forward? Because obviously you would work with other people's material quite a bit throughout the years since then. Yeah, I have worked with other people's material. But this was the only time I actually did an assignment. I showed it after I worked with somebody else.

I'm putting it together. This was just a bed time. calling up saying, would you be interested? I forget who had turned it down. There had been somebody that ended up being... It happened another time with Patty.

Harris where it was being turned down by people. That was me because I had a certain reputation of being willing to take on things that other people that scared other people. I think that's a good reputation to have. You are still so prolific and still doing such interesting work. I'm not going to go through your entire filmography, but just like just over the last few years with like First Reformed and The Card Counter and Master Gardener and O Canada.

These are terrific films. How do you still maintain the energy and the focus? I have a film premiering in bed. Called Basics of Philosophy. And then I started shooting a film in May.

I hope to do another film in October. The one in May, they're all original. The one in May is a kind of film noir, black oil kind of thing. But the one in the fall is going to be my I love your film. I can't believe it.

Thanks. Well, I look forward to seeing both of these, because I just admire your work so much, and I really respect that you're still out there just creating such wonderful films. Yeah, I know. At that age now, you're only one phone call away. Your phone rings, and the doctor says, Paul, could you stop by?

And you know it's not going to be good news. Right, right. Well, I hope the phone doesn't ring, sir. Thank you so much, Mr. Schrader.

This was such a pleasure speaking with you. All right. Across the centuries comes this exciting story of a modern girl cursed by an ancient legend. The legend of the cat people. Women whose kiss means death.

Whose love turns them into vicious, gnarling beasts of prey. Twice I've been followed by something that was not human. Something that attempted to take my life. I believe that was the cat form of Verena. Why should she wish to harm you?

Because I'm in love with her husband. Shut up. Just a minute ago it was open. What? Leave us, Verena.

All right, we are back, and we were talking about Cat People, but let's talk about the 1942 version of Cat People, and maybe the 44 Cursed the Cat People, the sequel. 1942, Cat People, all about this American man who marries a Serbian immigrant. Oh, my God. I can't believe they allow immigrants in this country, but they did, and maybe they still do. Maybe by the time this comes out, they won't.

It was a Christmas movie. December 25th, 1942. Everybody just was running out to see Cat People that year. Directed by Jacques Turner. Written by DeWitt Bodine, who also gets the credit on the 82 film.

And we've got Simone Simon as this arena and Kent Smith as this Oliver Reed, which is hilarious that he's Oliver Reed. But yeah, I. Like I said, I remember exactly where I was when I saw this film the first time. I believe I watched it on a PBS screening. I just remember there not being nearly as much sex as that 1982 version.

What the hell's going on with this? And you demand, I want my money back. I didn't see one bondage scene in this 1942. Oh, God. Yeah, no.

I love this film. I rewatched it for this pod because this one had been almost as long since I'd seen it originally. And I almost felt like I needed to rewatch it, not just for the pod, but seeing interviews with both Paul Schrader and Malcolm McDowell where they both kind of bagged on this movie. And it almost kind of gaslit me. I'm like, well, wait, I remember this being an excellent movie.

And then I watched it again and I'm like, Yeah, it's an excellent movie. Like, I don't... And I love. I mean, there's absolutely no hate on for. Schrader or McDowell.

Film is subjective. Life is subjective. Art is subjective. That's fine. I think this is a terrific film.

I think Simone Simon has... She brings this sort of vulnerability to Irina, but she does have sort of like a feline quality about her, even just physically. Yeah. It's not even just physically, her... No, I don't know if the actress was fluent in English or whatnot, but the way she speaks, it's not that thick, but her little Serbian accent, it's very alluring, the way she speaks.

Like, she's not sure that each word that she says means what she thinks it says. And with the arena in the 82 version... She's totally fluent in English, she gets everything. She doesn't feel like she comes from another world, whereas in the original, she really feels like she comes from another world and is trying to integrate into ours. Does that make any sense at all?

Yeah, she does have almost space alien qualities to her, where it is just, what is this strange land I'm in now? Yeah. Yeah. Well, and just, you know, when she meets, you know, Oliver and she, you know, she says, you're the first real friend I've had since coming to this country. And it kind of chugged on my heart over this poor girl, because you do like her, even though she's a litterer.

Because we see her just. Sketch, which I love the fact that the sketching is a continuity. Yeah, we have that kind of a little bit in the 82 with the Sasha's Irina scene. But she's just like ham and just ham fist in this, these wads of paper. Like that's all of her.

It's like, yeah, come on. He is the lesser Ollie Reed though, obviously. I think we all know. Who the superior. Well, that was the one thing that I really liked in Ormsby's screenplay too, was she doesn't want to show him what she's sketching.

And I'm, you know, which then makes you curious. And then the next day, or later that day, he gets an envelope in the mail. It's maybe that drawing or a different drawing, and it's of the leopard, and there's a little cartoon version of her saying, I'm sorry, or something. So it's like a way of her getting in his good graces. It's much more of a meet-cute than it is.

Yeah, she's still there after hours and stuff. I don't think they talk about her jumping up in a tree like she does, but Yeah, it's just more human. I feel more connected to the characters that Ormsby wrote than the ones that Schrader ended up showing us. See, I wish that would have been in the film. And that also, to me, would have made more sense for her and Oliver to kind of get into each other.

Because that, to me, seems like more of an earthy way to connect to somebody than just... oh, here's this girl that got spooked, but she's really cute. Let's go have oysters together. Like, what? You know, especially for somebody who's supposed to be antisocial. Even though he doesn't, Oliver in 82 is not, he still has all the sort of jovialness, at least initially, that the Oliver in this film and the Val Luton original has.

Like, the Oliver in this one's very much like, He even eats apple pie. He literally loves apple pie. He's the apple pie kind of, you know, happy-go-lucky sort of guy. He's kind of bland, though. I have to say.

I was going to say, he is the average square-jawed character. And he also, and maybe this is just modern sensibilities, he kind of doesn't take no for a fucking answer a couple of times, where it's like, dude, back off, you know? You're getting a little rapey here. But I know that's not how it was intended back then. It's just, I watch it now and it's like, no, you're getting a little bro-y here.

You're getting a little incel-y. Yeah, and well, and to be honest, he was so, and it's not a knock on the actor who plays Oliver in the 42 is fine. I don't have a problem with his performance at all. It's just that character is so bland to the point where I was almost like, Irina could definitely do better. Alice could definitely do better too.

Like, I'm like, both you girls, you're settling. You're like, where is an 82 going? I mean, John Heard's a good-looking guy. Like, that's an attractive man, and his Oliver is very kind of quirky in times, but very likable, and very warm, and, you know, even though they seem to pair up really fast, but the Fairmoon thing should have been mentioned. Because we do get this constant thing in the 42 of Irene's perfume.

Irene's perfume. She has a very distinctive scent, which I thought was such a cool, clever way to kind of do that in the original. We should have had that in 82, in my opinion. But yeah, John Heard. Part of that's John Heard's just a really magnetic person as an actor.

Yeah, here, Oliver's really bland. I mean, there were times where I was just like, girls, come on. Why don't you just hook up together? I mean, there's no way that's going to happen in 42. But I do love Alice.

And the 42 one. She literally says, so-and-so made... She's talking about, oh, he made me spit cotton. I couldn't stand him. He had me spitting cotton.

What does that mean? I've never heard this sort of phrase, but I love it. That's a really good one. Yeah, that one kind of went right past me. But yeah, that's one of those where you're just like, what the hell?

Especially when you hear these older phrases in the older films, and you're just like, wait a second, what... what are you even talking about? I know that people watch movies from 2026 and 50 years and be like, what is going on? What did they just say? It's a dap? What is happening?

Today, I was re-watching the Avengers Endgame, and the Hulk does a dap, and I'm just like, wow, that didn't age, and that was only from 2019. This is crazy that it's only seven years later, and just how you know, completely out of touch that one joke was. I take back every negative thing I said about Cat People 82, by the way, after hearing that. Jesus. What, Josh?

I'm sorry. I just looked it up. It means he gave her mouth was so dry because she was so turned on. Like, I've got the vapors. It was, you know, spit and cotton that, you know, he.

So, yeah, it's a really old phrase, but you made me too curious. So I had to look it up. Oh, I'm kind of disappointed now, because I'm glad you told me that, because I would have said that I took it as being like, oh, look at this wise guy, kind of derisive. Yeah, because I figured, yeah, this is such an educational moment. Thank you.

Yeah, and it's totally the opposite. Like, I would think my mouth would be watering instead of have a dry mouth from having that by being so turned on by Oliver. I think that's a guy thing from all the cartoons we watched with the wolves and the drooling and all the Tex Avery stuff. I think that's where that comes from. To me, one of the positives I have about the 42 version, for its low budget, because this was not a big studio film, it looks really good.

I don't know if it was just the print. I snagged it off YTS. Sorry, piracy. So I don't know if that's a Blu-ray print or anything. but it looked phenomenal. Nice, deep blacks, good lighting.

Because you guys know, especially with some of those lower-budget RKO pictures from that era, they can look real bad at times. Well, yeah, they can be lit flat, but this has those deep, rich shadows. I mean, this is Jacques Tourneur we're talking about here. He is no slouch, and he is shooting this at the height of film noir. This is a film noir horror film, which is such a great thing to have.

And the use of the shadows just even to represent the cat. Cause like, I love the, you know, the, the shot that's stuck in my mind from all those years ago when I watched it the first time was like the silhouette of a cat where you're just like, I don't even need to see a cat. I just need to see that silhouette. And that shadow on the wall just looks incredible. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, no, this is... It does... It looks amazing. The atmosphere it creates, the use...

And you're talking about the use of sound. There are parts where it's just literally just the sound, like the whole scene where Alice feels. Like she's being followed. And she is being followed. And just all you hear are the steps.

And the way that shot is tracked and cut is perfect. It is so perfect. And I. I just adore it. And it's such, you know, it is such a, like, for the economy, not just speaking of, like, the literal economy of the budget.

This movie, the original is only 73 minutes long, but it tells you so much and tells you everything. And some of, obviously, like, a lot of it's done sort of, like, literally in the shadows at times. And part of that's censorship, but also part of that is just, you know... sometimes the horror that works the best are is when you have that murkiness that fog for you're just like what is going on but you're intrigued and you want to know more and it's pulling you in and the 42 cat people does that completely and and does it completely without really having a real villain except for like there is the psychiatrist who is a bit villainous and he's definitely kind of like dude she's not into you you You need to keep your hands off of her.

But he's kind of obviously morally very suspicious and questionable. And I feel like I, and it might have been the notes you sent us, that the first draft of the Ormsby script had a psychiatrist character in it, at least. I don't know if it was based on this psychiatrist. And that's something we have completely lost by the way we get to the 82 one. Yeah.

It is interesting to see what stays from the 42 into the 82, like the woman in the pool. But the scene that Annette O'Toole would later be on where she's in a pool is so less scary because this version, you've got all the reflections off the water, that beautiful pattern, and just, again, the sound and just her stuck in this pool. She's not topless like Annette O'Toole was, but you feel like she's even more exposed, just the way that the whole scene is shot. They take what is. A really great horror scene from the 42 film, and yeah, they kind of play with it.

You hear the growling and things, and eventually she finds that her sweater's been torn out, but that's just what a mean girl does. Right. Well, and that To me, I had a disconnect with Irina in the 82 because up to that point, we've seen her be nothing but really nice and have a really positive interaction with Alice. And as a whole, Alice and Irina in the original are nice, but we find out pretty early that Alice literally is telling Irina's husband, I'm in love with you. And the minute that she sees he's unhappy in his relationship, she's like, I love you.

I'll tell you what love is. We'll be happy together. And so for Irina in the 42 to have kind of like, oh, I'm. Stalking you, girl. Like, she, for her, I'm not excusing that in real life, obviously, but you get when she's a little weird with her in the pool and gets where she's a little predatory.

And they bring that over to the 82 where our Kinski Irina's acting like that. But in that one, it doesn't make any sense because Alice, you can tell that Alice and Oliver at some point, like, probably dated or maybe had a fling. And she's probably a little sweet on him, but she hasn't been jealous. She's been, if anything, kind of a girl's girl with Irina, which I love seeing. By the way.

I get so tired of movies where it's just like, oh, two hot girls got to pit them against each other. Like, it's so cliche and dumb. And you really love, I liked Alice in both films, but, you know, Alice in 82, there's really no reason for Irina to be acting like that with her. Especially because Oliver in 82, is 1000% into Irina. You know, we're 40 and 42.

He's like, I'm patient. And then like a month or two into the marriage, he's like, I love you. Like, is that take? I love you to Alice. But it's like, yeah, he's out.

Yeah, I really feel like we suffered by not having Oliver as more of a main character, because I think that would have really, you know, not to not to sound like a weirdo, but I think if Oliver was elevated, that would pull up Alice as well. Because, yeah, Alice just feels like such a fourth fifth tier character where it's just like okay like yeah she's very fascinating and you know that whole thing where she what was she say to him when he's going up the ladder like you know bad luck or like she wishes him something bad and it's like okay you can tell that they have this relationship like you said like they were probably dating having sex at one point things broke off you get that a lot more that arm street draft and it's just a few pages it's just before they go to you know rescue this leopard you get more of that relationship and and also having ed bigley jr as the third leg of that stool he is not even anywhere near stool in this he's no third leg at.

All yeah Yeah, that's... which is strange. Granted, I'm grateful for any Bagley Jr. we get. I love him. And he has such a great rapport with Heard and O'Toole. You know, and that's...

In a way, it's so fascinating with 82 Cat People, because in a way, some of its negatives are also part of its positives. Because there are characters that I wish we had more of, partially because of the actors, and also partially because what we do get to see of some of these characters is really interesting. But.... At the same time, if that's a weakness of a film, then the film's still doing better than a lot of movies. Where some movies are like, you just told me the Hulk dabbed.

I mean... Yes, yes. Cat People's fine. No. I think the problem with Cat People 42 is just time left it behind.

It's not its own fault. I don't think it, you know, intentionally, like with the Hulk thing, set itself in, oh, this is relevant right now. It's just time moved on and, you know, the little idioms like spit and cotton just stopped being used in society. Now, on the other hand, I didn't really like Curse of the Cat People. Mike, you were talking about how, you know, they're flat and whatnot.

That's what I felt. Curse of the Cat People felt like the Scream Blackula Scream of this franchise, where first one's a hit, get another one out and get it out fast. Quality be damned. Yeah, which is interesting because we are able to bring back at least our two leads. But then, yeah, and even the screenwriter is the same person.

DeWitt Bodine is... back for this one but then you've got gunther von fritsch as the director and i think an uncredited robert wise was also working on this so yeah you just didn't get those deep rich shadows you didn't get the atmosphere and yeah it does feel very much like weak sauce even though again it's valutin producing so you would think because some people say like valutin films he's one of these producers kind of like a david o'selsnick or at least o'selsnick wishes he was this where it's like the producer's name comes before the director. You know, you hear Val Luton films, and you're like, oh yeah, Lepperman, this. It's like, well, he wasn't a director, he was a producer, but he just had a very distinct mark when it came to his stuff.

But yeah, this one, I don't feel like the mark made the impression enough. It does feel like diminishing returns. I always feel that way about George Powell. People are always like, oh, George Powell's War of the Worlds. Well, it was directed by Byron Haskin, but okay, you know, you get those sometimes.

And I mean, Mike and Heather, you, you guys both know from the nineties when they would start putting, you know, Wes Craven presents Quentin Tarantino presents where, you know, the producer's name would be mentioned four times in the trailer. Who's the director. I don't know. Some guy, Well, yeah, thank you for, I just got PTSD from seeing Dracula 2000, that flashback, because Wes Craven produced that. I was thinking of They.

Wes Craven Presents They was the one that ruined me. Man, I have not seen that one. But Heather, I've seen all three Dracula 2000 movies. Did you even make it to the sequels? No.

Roy Scheider's at least in the second one. I think Roy Scheider's still in that one. I did see somebody do a video review of Dracula 3000, which I would say looked better than the 2000. That's not part of the franchise. No, Dracula 3000's not part.

Actually, I will say this. Dracula 3000, and it's an ad lib, has the best final two minutes you're going to see in a trash film like that. Most of the movie is trash. The last two minutes are going to have you going, okay, that was worth it. And it was totally ad-libbed by Tiny Lister and the Baywatch chick.

I think it's Erika Alaniak. I might be wrong on that. I haven't seen it forever. But their ad-lib right before the credits makes the whole movie worthwhile. But otherwise, you get Udo Kier as an astronaut from the Transylvanian galaxy.

Or no, the Carpathian galaxy and his ship is the Transylvanian. Because what is Meta for? That sounds like some fanfic I would have written back in my drinking days by. The way of Udo Kier. Like my erotic Udo Kier fanfic.

Like a captain of a ship. I digress. Yeah. I'll ruin it for you. He dies 10 minutes into the movie.

Why do you think I hate Blade? Oh, don't even get me started. With the producer thing, though, another thing that makes me think of the 90s, how many people call Nightmare Before Christmas a Tim Burton film? Oh, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, justice for Henry Selleck, people.

Yeah, I've had to correct so many people for that. So what's interesting to me, though, too, is, so, you know, Josh, you brought up this whole idea of werewolves and what was going on in 1981, because I think we've covered almost all of the werewolf films other than American Werewolf in London. But that was interesting because it was like American Werewolf in London, The Howling, and Wolfen all coming out within, like, what, the same year, I think. It was insane. And technically, it's not a werewolf.

The Beast Within in Australia, which was giant mutant Katie did, people turning into giant katydids so it's kind of a werewolf movie sort. Of right but it's like you have this it's almost like an echo because it's like the wolfman the lon chaney junior wolfman comes out in 1941 i don't know when all of the other because i went through a whole period where i was watching a lot of me movies and found out that there were so many mummy movies and then so many werewolf movies just kind of played into it as well because I was like, oh, now let's take a look at the werewolf films. Holy shit, there's a lot of werewolf movies. But it's like the werewolves come. What's that stupid?

The werewolves are coming. They're already here. Whatever that there's a movie title. It's like the rats are coming. The werewolves are here.

That's Andy Milligan. Thank you. I'm so glad I knew you would remember that. It's like the werewolf. come in 81 the werewolf comes in 1941 and then the cat people follow right afterwards and the same damn thing happening 40 years apart yeah I don't know why there wasn't a sequel to cat people 82 other than I think it really didn't do very well I want to say that it's been considered a bomb I don't think did Siskel and Ebert give it two thumbs up and if not I don't want to watch this movie. Siskel and Ebert both liked it, which actually kind of shocked me that they both liked it.

I think we know why they liked it if they were calling... I don't know. You know, like, I'm suspicious of them liking it. And I don't know why, because I actually like this movie, too. And I think it's great in a lot of ways.

Like, Anastasia Skinsky's great, but I feel like they don't... Her actual talents. She is a gorgeous woman. That's obvious. Anybody with eyes knows that.

But there's more. Yeah. You also got to understand when it comes to like Siskel and Ebert, they would always rail against films before they came out that they would end up liking. Like in that whole slasher movie, you know, why it's demeaning against women special. They bitched about the then unreleased The Howling.

Because remember, the original trailer was very much sold like a slasher film instead of a werewolf film. And then both of them ended up liking The Howling quite a bit. Well, three months ago, you were telling people not to go see it. And it's a sick, disgusting film. Yeah, so weird.

It's so, it fries in my brain anytime I think about it that Roger Ebert wrote Beyond the. Valley of the Dolls. I don't say that as like, oh, that's hilarious. I love that movie. I can't believe that he wrote one of my favorite movies ever.

But yeah, no, I do. That is such a cool point though, Mike, about the werewolf and the cat people literally almost like a, you know. It's like a cycle. So which, which was making me think that, you know, with like, robert eggers werewolf that's coming out pretty soon like maybe there'll be a cat person coming in our future but i also don't want it to be like hey here's all of these dc films and then there's cat woman which was one of the worst films ever made you know it's like okay hopefully like pay more attention you know like bloom house go ahead you can make your version of cat people but like make it good please i would really like it you know because especially like so rare that we have a female led horror film and is it going to be one of those stupid things where guys are just like well that's that proves that women can't be in horror films you can't have a woman well it's like fucking a man women are leads of horror films all the time you know like but they're not the lead sure too often like and if they are the lead creature then they're unsympathetic like species you know it's like no I want a sympathetic monster woman as my main character and I'm sure there are people yelling at the radios right now what are you doing listening to a podcast on a radio you are a weirdo but like you know just like there are probably a lot of sympathetic female monsters like your frankenhoekers all those kind of things but it's like yeah let's continue on with that let's have more of that please and like yeah if we're going to do it other cat people which i'm not saying they are but maybe we're going to start this cycle again in 2026 who knows.

No, no, no, I interrupted you. Well, I was just going to say, and real quick, budget of $ 12. 5 million, box office of $ 21 million for the Paul Schrader film. Oh, what? That's pretty decent.

That's decent, yeah. That's, um... Probably an underperformance for what Universal wanted, but it's not a bomb. No. Yeah, and it's a Universal horror film, which, again, kind of plays in this whole cycle.

Like, maybe had the Dark Universe taken off, we would have had a Oh, an arena coming in at some point, you know, 10 movies on. Yeah, I will say that I do think it's kind of interesting in a testament to Luton and Jacques Tourne that I think of the two, I think the original is the one that still has the bigger cachet. I mean, because it's the one at Criterion. And. For whatever reason, I've always gotten this feeling that this remake tends to be...

People know about it, but I feel like I don't think it ever gets talked about like a lot of other horror films of this era do. And in some ways, that's a shame because it is... It's got flaws, but it's a great movie. And I do think it's worth watching. And I think it fascinates me.

I'm hard-pressed to think of a director and screenwriter who's had... more of a varied and fascinating career like paul schrader and the fact that he's tied this also did anybody clock the mashima reference. Oh yeah yeah i brought that up in the interview and i felt embarrassed because i had forgotten that it was in. There yeah on oliver's little i think like nightstand he's got i was like oh that's i like that but yeah like it I honestly, I'm at the point, I don't want anybody remaking it. Just make something inspired by this. But I am all for, we do need more, like being a female in this world is already a horror movie.

So let's have more female horrors. Let's have, you know, let's have more class horror too. Like we, art is there for us to explore what scares us, what frightens us, And sometimes it's about the selves. I think that's something that's so compelling about cat people. And I think that Schrader and Ormsby did nail so beautifully here is, you know, the idea of having something within you that is terrifying.

And you know it's you. You know it's a part of you and you can't escape it. Having that shadow self is something I always love seeing explored in horror, whether it's a werewolf film or like Romero's The Crazies, even though that's like kind of a virus thing. But like it's, you know, but you end up doing something Like, that you're like, God, I did that. And you can't live with yourself doing that.

That kind of exploration of the dark side of humanity is always needed, you know? And I think it's a way to comfort us in a weird way, because it's like, you're not alone. And it's also a way to kind of explore your own sort of, you know, everybody's got issues. Everybody's got demons. How do you make peace with them?

I was going to say, There's an aspect we haven't really touched on, the amazing soundtrack to the 82 movie. Both the Giorgio Moroder score and the David Bowie music, they complement this movie so much. There's only one other group that I think could have pulled off a score this good as Moroder, and that would be Tangerine Dream. You know, like, Mike, you kind of said, like, what if Jodorowsky had made this? I'm going, what if Tangerine Dream had done the soundtrack instead of Giorgio Moroder?

Because I just love the score. And you guys saw the weird legal nonsense that David Bowie ran into with the score, right? So he made this for Universal, who, when they got the score, when they got his theme song, that was for Universal Music Group. Well, his label was over on Sony, so when he tried to put that out on his album that year, they wouldn't let him. So he had to do a whole new re-record of the same song because the companies were in a pissing match over who gets the David Bowie single.

Jeez. Corporate bullshit, man. But I just want to say the Giorgio Moroder score, some people don't like Giorgio Moroder. And to me, it kind of depends on the film. But I'm one of the people, I really pissed one of my film teachers off when I said, I love the Giorgio Moroder Metropolis score from 1984.

And he's like, are you nuts? That's horrible. No, it's pretty cool. Yeah, no, I have no problems with Moroder. I love it, especially his work with Donna Summer.

That was fucking amazing. Oh, my God. No, same. I'm actually, I feel like if somebody told me they didn't like Giorgio Moroder, I'd almost feel like that's a hot take for me. I'd be like, what?

You don't like good music? Like, what? Like, I mean, no, Marauder's great. Well, Heather, you got to understand, I'm the kind of person who likes the Concrete Blonde version of Everybody Knows better than Larry, than Leonard Cohen. I love Larry Cohen's.

Version of Everybody Knows. Well, it was very, very well written, though he didn't have the budget to do it really justice. But, you know, Larry Cohen wrote a really good version. But I get a lot of crap when I say I like the Concrete Blonde version of Everybody Knows Better. And people are like, well, now I know not to take your opinion seriously.

Really? They're both great. I didn't say Cohen's was bad. I just, I grew up on the Concrete Blonde version from Pump Up the Volume. The Concrete Blonde are great.

What is wrong? Also, it's an opinion. Like, calm down, people. And are you having this argument much in 2026? Yes, unfortunately, because Pump Up the Volume got discovered at my school, so I made this statement in the front of my class.

And it did not go over well. You know what? Sometimes we were not put here on Earth to argue with mere mortals. That's true. I thought maybe you were just having that conversation in the shower every morning.

I happen to like showering to everybody knows it it wakes it wakes you up it opens your pores and it makes you start to cry i'm more. Of a ghost of a texas ladies man shower person myself if we're talking about the blonde concrete blonde that is yeah no it's no the giorgio marauder score here is great i i will say and i can't believe i'm actually going to echo an opinion of quentin but I actually do kind of. Wish the David Boyce song was used in not just in. The outro, like in the dream sequence, hearing David Boyce's voice that I mean, I just don't play the whole song. That's where I would disagree with him.

We don't need like an eight minute sequence or whatever, dude, in the middle of the film, as great as the song is. But hearing David Boyce's voice as she's entering that dreamland would have punched it up. A little bit. That's why the trailer works so well, because it uses the David Bowie music over the trailer. And that's why that trailer just is such an amazing trailer.

And I don't know if it's just the version that they put out, but that thing is over color corrected to hell. And I love it. I actually like the color, the kind of gag lighting in the trailer more than I like the actual movie. Man. Yeah.

Yeah. that's interesting that's i've seen some people what research because i thought some people complain about that i don't know i didn't mind it the trailer i do love that this film's been restored properly and we do get to see the colors this is another film i do wish more modern like current filmmakers because i feel like color grading has become kind of abused or i would yeah where people like oh it's got to be color corrected and it's like so it looks bland People are. Afraid of the palette. Like, come on, boost them colors. You saw the thing a couple of years ago before James Cameron fell into the AI hole where somebody took like the Blu-ray or 4K of aliens. And you know how aliens has that cold kind of blue all around it?

They did like that neon pukey green for it. And it's like, well, according to the color wheel, this is what this should look like. And And I can't remember if it was Cameron himself who complained on Twitter, but somebody was like, yeah, we fixed your movie for you. You're welcome. Don't, oh, yeah.

It's like, no, I'll stick with my DVD, because even if it's lower quality... It's got the correct color grading. Yeah, between that and. Seeing people use their good goddamn time to be like, oh, I've improved the special effects of this. Why don't you just make a movie?

Instead of being like, you know, or doing CinemaSins or any of this horse shit. If you're so precious about other people's work, make a movie. Seriously, I'm not even saying that to be cranky. I'm like, Make it. If you don't like what something's done, then make something yourself.

You don't like that book? Write a book. I'm one of the harshest critics out there. Mike knows everything pisses me off in movies. And I...

Oh, every... Okay, that's true. Everything pisses me off about everything. I'm one of the harshest critics out there. and my girlfriend actually said do you actually like movies and I'm like yes that's why I get so pissed off when they fuck. Them up you care you're coming from a place of passion yeah respect I I'm coming from a place of I love Giorgio Moroder and I agree this David Boyce song I think this song is one of his best in the 80s I don't know if I'd make it in my top 20 if we were doing a whole catalog, but that's less about that song and more the fact that it's David Bowie, one of the greatest artists of our time.

Is there anything else we want to talk about? Cap People, 42, 44, or 82? I guess I would wrap up saying the original is worth a watch. You can maybe skip Curse, but the 82 remake... If you're into 80s movies, if you're into hypersaturated colors, if you're into kind of dreamlike narratives, I mean, it's not a dreamlike narrative, but there are parts that are.

And if you can handle a lot of incest talk, Cat People 82 is a fantastic watch, and I absolutely think people should watch it. And I also, I recently found out while doing my research, there's a syndicated TV version of this. I'm kind of curious, guys. I wonder how in the hell they showed this movie on syndicated television in the 80s. Yeah, that's a good question.

Yeah. That is wild. I guess just for the wrapping up, I would highly encourage anybody to watch both films. Honestly, if you watch one, watch the other. The originals, I mean, it's a stone cold classic of horror cinema.

If you love horror films and if you haven't watched it already, what are you doing? Go watch it right now. It's very easy to find. And the 82 one, yeah, it's great. And I wouldn't call it what I call the best Paul Schrader or Alan Ormsby work.

But I do think it's a worthy watch. I think it's got a lot of great things in it and some cool atmosphere. And we get to see the Stone Cold cast. Just to piggyback a thought. If you love the Cat People song by David Bowie, there is actually a really great cover of it by an Australian goth rock band called Big Electric Cat, who got their name from an Adrian Ballou song.

So life is all about connective tissue, people, and it's beautiful. Let's go ahead and take another break, and we'll be back with a preview for next week's show right after these brief messages. Hello? It's me. Oh, am I bothering you?

Francesca? Oh, don't worry. I'll get out of the shower sometime. Hold on a minute, Franco. In the great tradition of From Dusk Till Dawn and The Night.

Of the Living Dead... You were saying, Franco? Comes Cemetery Man, the movie critics are calling frightfully funny. Why the barbed wire? Do they climb in at night?

No. They climb out sometimes. A visual feast of ghoulishness. Deliriously original. A movie full of surprises.

We can't. I'm alive. And you're dead. I'm not prejudiced, my love. A hilariously ghoulish rom.

Get down or I'll shoot. You can't. I'm the mayor. X. Rupert Everett, this time.

It is forever. Rest in peace. Cemetery Man, coming October 1st to home video, rated R. I want to thank Heather and Josh for joining me this week to talk about cat people. So Josh, what is new with you, sir?

I'm not sure exactly when this is going to come out, but. Well, if you look at the very top of the document, it'll say 10-21-2026. No, the thing I'm pimping, I don't know when it's coming out, Mike. Oh, all right, all right, all right, gotcha, yeah. So I don't know when this is coming out, but the next issue of Video Scope magazine has a couple of DVD or Blu-ray reviews from me.

And the current issue of Delirium from Full Moon has a big write up on techno horror from me. And that was a lot of fun to write. So I had to watch a lot of bad techno horror movies from the 90s, though. God, so much VR. If there was one person to watch a lot of bad VR movies from the 90s, you're the guy I would pick.

And you know what? I appreciate that. But this one almost beat me. And Heather, what's the latest with you, ma'am? Well, for any of you who love science fiction films, low budget cinema and shot on video cinema, Saturn's Core. audio and video who have really been doing the Lord's work with underground cinema and restoring these films, have a release of Flesh Eaters from Outer Space by Warren Disbrow.

I have a video and written essay on this release. It's 10 tons of fun, great creature effects, and there's some really cool sort of Great working class characters in the film. It's a gem for sure. We are about to launch it to October. I will be doing on my YouTube channel this year's 2026 is the Kings and Queens of Halloween.

I'm bringing it back. I did it last year, all 31 and it's spooky season. So it's time to return it for any other sundry matters. Go to my link tree link tree.com forward slash Mondo Heather. Well, thank you again, folks for being on the show.

Thanks to everybody for listening. If you want to hear more of me shooting off my mouth, check out some of the other shows that I work on. They're all available at weirdingwaymedia.com. Thanks especially to our Patreon community. If you want to join the community, visit patreon.com slash projectionbooth.

Every donation we get helps us and the cat people take over the world. And I've been putting on. Fire With gasoline See these eyes so red Red like jungle burning bright Those who feel me near Pull the flies and change. Their mind Let's face our love Silver's fall is ignite. A flag I call a heartbeat Just be still with me You wouldn't believe what I've been.

Through You've been so long And it's been so long Loving. Putting out the fire with gasoline Putting out the fire See these tears so. Blue. An ageless heart that can never mend. These tears can never dry.

Judgment made can never bend. See these eyes so green. I can stare for. A thousand years. Just be still with me.

You wouldn't believe what I've been through It's been so long Well, it's been so long And I've been putting out the fire with gasoline Putting out the fire with gasoline. Oh, it's been so. Long I've been pulling on fire Oh, it's been so long I've been pulling on fire It's been so long I'm putting out fire.